TOPIC: More army protests

Have you seen the latest on this?
www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news...ce-in-jerusalem.html

I'm pretty shocked they used flash grenades. Those are dangerous.
A few months ago the disabled were protesting for a raise in government assistance, do you think the police would through flash grenades at them?

I don't care how insane the people who are protesting are, you cannot physically harm them to the point 8 people had to go to the hospital for injuries. That is NOT okay.

This is not to say that I agree with the protestors. But unless the protesters were being violent and physically hurting other people like insane psychotics and the only way to get them to stop harming others was grenades, I think that's crazy. And still, if it was a disabled or mentally ill person harming others through protests, they would try other options before flash grenades.

Also no one has proved the basis of a protest was necessary.
What do you all think?

I hate to disagree with you, Hadas, but these protestors are not only insane, they're dangerous. Idk whether you saw the news several months ago, but chareidi protestors (so-called frum people) refused to let an ambulance pass as part of their protest. To me, that calls for the severe use of force if necessary to get these people out of the way. Just a pity the police weren't there then!

These people have been acting like idiots, being reckless with their own lives and that of others. And, I'm not sure whether you read the story you posted a link to, but the eight people sent to the hospital were NOT only protestors: several of them were police, who were, presumably, attacked and injured by the so-called frum people, again.

And I have to disagree with your statement that the police wouldn't do anything like that if it were disabled or mentally ill people who were harming others: the police do what they need to do to protect themselves and others. I know people love to shout "racism" and "anti-semitism" in the blink of an eye, but, believe it or not, most times people just want to do their jobs and go home to their families, without vitriolic hatred behind their every move.

And, I hate to sound like a self-hating Jew, but I can honestly say that, were I a gentile living in Israel while these protests were going on, I would almost definitely become an anti-Semite on the spot.

Have some self-respect, people! Get lives and jobs! Israel is NOT your country and the government is NOT beholden to you! If you don't like what the government does, get out of the country: no one's forcing you to stay.

First of all I would not call many of these protestors Chareidi, not in my book.

Let's be honest, the police need to do what they do to protect people. If it were disabled people they would definitely try other things before flash grenades, those can really hurt people.

I disagree with you on the issue of not liking what the government does. Protests are about change, and about wanting to create a better country. This happens all over the world, and it's normal not to agree with everything your country does. There's plenty of protests in the USA and people who disliked the government and even think they are evil but continue to live there.

I'm glad you wouldn't call them Chareidi, but that's what they call themselves and it's the group they affiliate themselves with, so that's what the world sees them as being.

The police HAVE been trying other options. Idk whether you've been following the news, but they've been arresting as many of them as they can transport each time. It just doesn't work: not only don't the rest of the protestors run for it, they actually stood around the bus one time as it was taking the criminals to (I would assume) the nearest police station and singing songs about being moser nefesh. (Like they would know anything about that....)

I agree with you that it's okay to protest against something the government does that you don't like. Here's the issue: because it's Israel, the religious Jews decided that it's their country and their government, and they should get more rights than they do anywhere else. They need to understand that the Israeli government is dying to be more secular and is NOT interested in catering to them. If they do, it's just to get their votes.

These people need to understand that Israel is NOT a Jewish country or a Jewish government. They need to keep their heads down like they do in every other country. If an issue bothers you, you can politely complain. You never, ever have the right to disturb the peace, physically harm others, and make such a massive chillul Hashem.

Chilul Hashem is relative, and disturbing the peace isn't really a crime.
Yes people need to keep their head down more, but the issue isn't so simple. I am living in Israel, and it goes more than just wanting to draft yeshiva bochurim.

They're doing mixed brigades, on multiple accounts have fed treif food to frum soldiers, and have done so much more.

It's complicated, to put it mildly.

I understand that it's complicated, but, at the same time, people have been using that argument to excuse their behavior.

Chillul Hashem is NOT relative at all: in every single thing a Jew does, he must make sure that he is treading nowhere near that fine line between self-advocacy and Chillul Hashem.

Disturbing the peace is, first of all, a crime that you can be charged with in court. But the main crime is the Chillul Hashem that results from it.

Again, it doesn't matter what the government wants to enforce. Imagine for a moment that the United States wanted to make all these reforms. People might protest and send in letters to complain, but I highly doubt that they would flood the streets as an angry mob, injuring innocent people and police officers, and making perhaps the most massive Chilllul Hashem this world has ever seen.

The Israeli government is dying to be more similar to that of other countries, and they are not interested in pandering to the religious Jews. We need to think of them as being any other secular government: their first priority is not Judaism, and we need to stop telling them it should be. They have no obligation to us.

Also, I just wanted to clarify that I don't just think this about Israel: I believe it to be true in every country in the world.

We are the outsiders here, the ones who do not belong, howsoever comfortable we might feel in this world. We've become accustomed to our rights and privileges: we're already conditioned in that, as soon as someone makes an anti-Semitic remark or passes an anti-Semitic reform, we flare up and begin making protests and commenting angrily in the media.

But this is not our world. It is the gentiles' world, and we, remember, are going to be outsiders until Moshiach comes. We're not supposed to be asserting our rights right now, staging protests and insisting that we are treated like everyone else.

Of course, we should try to get fair treatment, but anger is not the correct response. We knew this was going to happen: when we were sent into golus, we knew it wasn't going to be an easy trip, full of rights, privileges, and equality. Because that's not what golus is all about.

Yes, we should stick up for ourselves, but we need to remember that we're not a part of this world. We need to keep our heads down, work on our communities and ourselves, and daven that Hashem takes us out of this golus soon. Only then will we return to the status of exaltedness that we once owned.

People definitely flood the streets in the USA, burn things and more. It happens so much more often it doesn't even make the headlines. But the point is, yes destroying property is definitely wrong, and as someone who actually lives here, I've definitely seen plenty of protesters who did not destroy property, yell, etc, etc, but rather came with signs, or stood quietly and did not make a fuss.

Only the insane people get the spotlight, if you know what I mean.
Because of this I don't want to condemn the protest, because I'm not against the idea of protesting nor do I think it is wrong, I just think there's a way to go about it and unfortunately the people that make the headlines are not the quiet people doing things the right way.

On another note, I'm not exactly sure this falls under a Chilul Hashem. Chilul Hashem/desecrating God's is a very delicate matter, and not a simple one either. Nowadays people seem to throw around the word so much so that it sounds like an idea rather than an actual halacha.

The sin of making a chillul Hashem is so serious that the Talmud in Yoma (86a) tells us that neither teshuvah, nor any suffering in this world can fully effect atonement for a person. A person cannot be fully cleansed of the taint of making a chillul Hashem until he has died.

Wow, that sounds kind of intense, no?

There's laws that specifically detail what is considered a chilul Hashem, and from the little I know I understand that it's a personal thing. An event can't be a Chilul Hashem, rather people can cause a Chilul Hashem by doing specific things that may collide with the occurrence of an event.

Does this make sense?

So in this case, it's very possible that many people protesting did make a chilul Hashem for the way they protested, But there are people who protest properly, in a dignified matter, and as such did NOT create a Chilul Hashem, so to call the entire protest in a general sense black on white a Chilul Hashem isn't very accurate IMHO.

When I said people wouldn't do that sort of thing in the USA, I was talking about frum Jews. I would like to think we're a bit more functional than that.

And, I hate to say this, but you keep on contradicting yourself. You say that "destroying property is definitely wrong," but you still "don't want to condemn the protest," even though they did that and much, much more?!?

And, you're right, Chillul Hashem is grammatically used in the wrong way. Chillul Hashem is generally defined as the "desecration of G-d's name," so an event or person can cause a Chillul Hashem, but can't actually be one. I get what you're saying, but you're going off on a tangent.

A Kiddush Hashem would be something that makes people say, like in the story with Reb Shimon ben Shetach and the donkey, "Blessed is the G-d of Rabbi Shimon Ben Shetach" (or the Jewish people). Conversely, a Chillul Hashem would be something that makes people curse the G-d of the Jewish people, or wonder what sort of G-d this is that instructs His people to act in such an unruly manner.

If this protest causes people to say, "What kind of G-d do these people worship that makes them act this way?" or statements of a similar manner, then it has caused a Chillul Hashem. It is black and white. Anyone who participates in the event and condones such behavior is, therefore, guilty of causing a Chillul Hashem. Of course, there are personal factors involved, but that's the basic idea.

Look, no offense, but you don't seem to have a clear idea of what you're trying to say. My guess is you have some kind of personal stake in this protest (maybe you know people who are part of it?): you seem very hesitant to come out and say that it's wrong despite the fact that you've already said about a million times over that you think they're doing the wrong thing. So just take a step back, reread your answers, and clarify what you're really trying to say.

Mimi Starr wrote: Protests are done around the world, and they aren't synonymous with violence necessarily.

Sorry for not making myself clear.
In general I don't like condemn events, rather the people in them.
I don't think having a protest is wrong nor the basis of this was was wrong, nor do I think everyone in attendance acted wrongfully. I think some people in this protest did not act correctly, but I am not going to condemn the entire protest because of that.

This reminds me of friends who live here who believe all arabs should die. I don't think I can simply condemn an entire nation and I do believe there are good arabs out there. When I present this argument to those friends they always claim that the "good" arabs you read about in the news must have a Jewish mother or grandmother, and there are no such things as good arabs.
Mimi Starr wrote:
Both a Kiddush and Chilul Hashem aren't simply ideas, but there are clear cut halachos involved, and one should ask a Rabbi about any specific case.

Who can define what makes someone want to curse or bless Jews? If it's dependant on every joe shmoe than we shouldn't do anything for fear someone, somewhere will take it the wrong way.

That is exactly why there are clear halachos and definition of what these things look like.
Hmm, perhaps I should ask a Posek if he is willing to post his Psak on what parts of these protests and ideas are a chilul Hashem.

Would any of you guys be interested in seeing an article or post on this topic?

Of course, protests aren't necessarily synonymous with violence, but I am speaking of those protests that include acts of violence.

I understand that you don't want to condemn everyone who protested about the various reforms (although why you can't do it when Rabbi Chaim Kanievsky did is beyond me), but my point is that there are situations that grow so terrible and out of proportion that, while one might have previously been allowed to take part in them, he/she is no longer allowed to do so. For example, in this case, while it may have been halachically permissible to take part in a peaceful protest, once the protest comes to symbolize acts of purposeless violence (that clearly go against halacha), then one should no longer associate with it.

Hadas, you can speak about Chillul Hashem being clear-cut and not an idea until you're blue in the face, but the fact is that these so-called chareidim are acting in a manner that is completely against halacha. They have been condemned by various gedolei hadar, who have themselves called the protest a Chillul Hashem.

Here is a loose translation of Rabbi Chaim Kanievsky's letter regarding the Peleg (taken from Yeshiva World News):

Rosh Chodesh Cheshvan 5778

I have heard, and my stomach is turned, regarding a recent matter where the Honor of the Torah has been cast downward to the lowest depths by empty and depraved individuals who have insulted one of the leading Torah educators in our generation. They have done so with various machinations that cannot even be put into print. They act as sheep who have no shepherd, how there is no [longer any] fear of Heaven in this place! Woe to us that such things have happened in our days!

Therefore, it is up to us to strengthen ourselves greatly in the study of Torah, as a mida keneged mida. Through this we shall merit to raise the banner of our Holy Torah.

Chaim Kanievsky

I don't think even you can deny that, by saying that "the Honor of the Torah has been cast downward to the lowest depths," Rabbi Kanievsky is saying the protests are a Chillul Hashem.

Again, I just want to stress that the point of this discussion is NOT whether these protests are a Chillul Hashem or not, as much as you may want it to be.

It's about the absolute and utter wrongness of these protests and anyone who chooses to affiliate with them in full knowledge of the participants' actions and behaviors. These protests have been condemned over and over by various gedolei hador, and it is therefore halachically forbidden to take any part in them, whether or not one actually behaves in a violent manner.

They have been condemned by some, not all gedolim. Many gedolim have chosen to stay quiet, especially because like I said, not everyone at these protests acts inappropriately.

- Hadas Bat-el

Sorry I haven't updated this, my grandparents have come in from the States and I've been busy with them and being with my family, Baruch Hashem.

In any case, although I do respect Rav Kanievsky, there are many more rabbanim out there besides him, and many different opinions. Unfortunately the media will always show the worst parts of humanity, and not the best ones in these types of situations.

Based on that, I'm asking now a theoretical question, if something is put in a bad light to the general population, is it assur to associate with that thing?

Besides for these protests I can give other examples of such scenarios, such as when the Reform and Conservative women go pray at the Western wall on Rosh Chodesh, there are many people attacking those women and doing things that are definitely not allowed. So should I not protest in silence, along with tens of other people who go there on rosh chodesh and daven quietly and modestly?

Hadas Bat-el can you really get a thread started about Chilul Hashem? I'm quite interested on the halachos, I feel like it's definitely overused...

I am not saying that it is assur to associate with something that is seen in a bad light by the general population. If something is generally acknowledged to be a positive and necessary cause, then one may participate (with permission from the gedolim, of course). What I am saying is that it is assur to associate with something that the overwhelming majority of gedolei hador agree is against the Torah and a Chillul Hashem.

At any rate, if you're saying that you don't accept everything Rabbi Chaim Kanievsky says as halacha (in accordance with the commandment "Do not stray from the matter which they [the gedolei hadar] say to you [either] right or left"), then we have nothing further to discuss.

what were the blacks doing in all their protests if not outright killing police officers (not injuring unless their plan to kill has only worked partially), and of course they flooded the streets!

i totally disagree with the army protesters, simply because i believe in other more effective ways to thwart the army troubles but this is what they believe in, they don't believe according to their esteemed rabbi (yes, esteemed, he was a big Gadol Batorah and this whole situation is sadly the heart of the Machlokes between them and the mainstream chareidi's)
and tho i hate their riots and ways i understand they have a reason and right to do what they believe (freedom of speech freedom of religion btw) as long as they do it with Daas Torah, the problem is that most of the mess wreckers are mostly bored people looking for excitement and take it to an unaccepted level, but i can't be hateful and against the group as a whole.
it's really inconvenient- true but iv'e learnt that in all generations jews had some kind of protests at times- not really protests more like prayer conventions that blocked the roads and traffic because there was so many and didn't fit in a building or because they purposely wanted to make it public, and it's fine, they did it Leshem Shamaim. the protesters here too (most) are doing it Leshem Shamaim weather they are right or not we can't really know because g-d hasn't told us yet we just know and go according to what our rabbis tell us.
and after all they are Jews and as that our brothers and we must love them even if we are totally positive they are wrong just like any other jew out there religious or not.

in other countries jews aren't forced to go against their religious beliefs,
yes most protesters go crazy do stuff they shouldn't but those are not the real g-d fearing jews, the media will always take the bad actions as those get better credits in stories, way more than that little group on the side saying tehillim.
not that i don't roll my eyes when i pass some of these ppl making a rocket on the street....

"I don't think even you can deny that, by saying that "the Honor of the Torah has been cast downward to the lowest depths," Rabbi Kanievsky is saying the protests are a Chillul Hashem."
if r' kanievsky says its a chillul hashem i believe it is,
correct me if i'm wrong but you speak of them with so much hate, why are you so against them?
i'm very much against their acts but they are jews who follow Rav Shmuel Ourbach zatzal and while i don't agree with his teachings he was definitely a Gadol and respected by all Gedolim, as i said this is just a result of a big machlokes between him and Rav Shteinman whom mainstream follow, started after the death of Rav Elyashiv zatzal.
actually i only started accepting them after a rabbi in my seminary explained the topic and had me understand a bit where they are coming from and i am learning to accept and love while disagree, it is possible just as it was possible by all the machlokes stories in gemara where they loved each other, were friends and all but fiercely disagreed. we just have to try and not let it get too personnel to us, this whole protest topic is nothing personnel, nothing against anyone, i can't believe these ppl are looking to harm because they are just trying to make a statement. jews don't want to hurt people, that means most jews- not those who have lost their identity and mental health, we can see all over that even affiliated jews show mercy and love for the ppl around them so especially ones who learn torah which shapes the person will not seek to harm.
i shall listen to a recording i have of my rabbis class on this topic, then i should be able to explain my view better...

Thanks Malach! Lots of food for thought!
Rena, hopefully I can make a article/post on the topic in the next few weeks. Don't wrory, I'll get it done!

Of course I believe we should follow da'as torah!
I was only trying to point out that there are many other gedolim, and thus other opinions. It's hard to understand how conflicting ideas can be right, but that's how Torah works. Although you may follow this gadol or Rabbi there are other Rabbi's and gadols out there that may not share the same opinions.

Just making that point.

I do not advocate anyone to not follow da'as torah. Da'as Torah is extremely important, especially to me, as you see this entire site is run with lots of Rabbanim, and lots of other Rabbanim who are not on FHO thought this was an awful idea.

Different opinions, but people on equal stature.

Mimi where have you been lately?
Life got you busy? I'm curious what you have to say back to Malach and Hadas.