Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: Confused, Not Depressed

Confused, Not Depressed 2 years 9 months ago #780

  • Frummie
  • Frummie's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Newbie
  • Posts: 5
  • Thank you received: 1
  • Karma: 0
hey everyone!
basically, i thought i'd post a question i've had for a very long question, but no teacher has ever been able to answer satisfactorily.
my question is this: why did Hashem have to create the world? wouldn't our souls be much happier just being in his presence?
teachers have given me the really complicated answer where hashem had to put us on this world, b/c we'd only be happy if we earned our schar, etc.
but i don't feel like that's a valid explanation. hashem could totally have made us in a way that we don't need to deserve schar to feel good about it; he could make us happy with something we didn't earn!
does anyone have an answer for me??
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Confused, Not Depressed 2 years 9 months ago #781

  • Hadas Bat-el
  • Hadas Bat-el's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Administrator
  • Founder of FHO
  • Posts: 147
  • Thank you received: 20
  • Karma: 2
So, I know the answer about the schar too, that's actually a really deep one, and one of my favorites. I see from your question though, the perhaps your teacher didn't teach you the full idea, because you still seem confused.

I learned this very thoroughly in seminary, in a few classes given by my principal. I'll try to explain, and I think I should be able to since I love this idea, but if I can't explain enough I'll definitely give your question over to him, as he is also one of the rabanim who is in charge of this site.

Basically, according to this theory. God couldn't of created us just enjoying his presence because we wouldn't be able to appreciate it. Let me try to break that down a bit more. If God just created a bunch of souls to be near him, we wouldn't ever be able to fully enjoy him on a high level because all we would be is mindless creations. How much enjoyment can animal and Hashem get out of their relationship? They were created to do what they do, they do it, and that's about it. Where's the relationship?

According to this theory, Hashem put us into this world, and gave us the opportunity to take what he has given us. and create something ourselves. Rather then just be the creation, like a machine, do what we were made to do, we are here to create something new from ourselves, change ourselves to overcome things, middos, until we can claim that we are our own creators. When we do this, we will be on the level of a creator somewhat and be fully able to bask in Hashem's presence.

If you want to hear the explanation (with sources of course, that I of course cannot remember), I can forward on the question to him and post the answer.

What do you have to say to this? In any case, even if I do get another answer from him, I enjoy having a conversation on these topics, so keep up the questions and ideas!
Welcome to the FHO forum!
I'm Hadas Bat-el founder of FHO! I'm also a poet, blogger, writer, copywriter, and proud redhead! You can read my blog here: frumhangout.com/index.php/blog/item/hadas-bat-el-2 , I post every Sunday!

I can't wait to get to know you all! So what are you waiting for?! START POSTING!

You can also reach me at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. if you have any questions, comments, or you want to help with the site!
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Confused, Not Depressed 2 years 9 months ago #782

  • Frummie
  • Frummie's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Newbie
  • Posts: 5
  • Thank you received: 1
  • Karma: 0
okay, i might sound like a bit of a devils advocate here, but i could say that, technically, hashem could have created us that we would be able to enjoy his presence on a high level - like, understanding exactly what it is we have and never take it for granted.
i know it sounds like i'm trying to find a way to question it, but the point is that there's so much pain in this world, i feel like hashem could have found a way out of putting us down here.
the reason i called this thread confused, not depressed, is because i'm not depressed. i like my life, but i'd just rather be up there, where i can experience the most fantastic pleasure for all eternity.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Confused, Not Depressed 2 years 9 months ago #783

  • Hadas Bat-el
  • Hadas Bat-el's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Administrator
  • Founder of FHO
  • Posts: 147
  • Thank you received: 20
  • Karma: 2
This is going to sound like a cop-out answer, but no, Hashem could not of made the world that way. Hashem has limitations, I'm sorry to kill your childhood, but Hashem is limited by perfection. He is perfect, and he can not be imperfect. Such a world, would be imperfect.

I'm going to share this thread with our rabbi's and they hopefully can add some more insights.
Welcome to the FHO forum!
I'm Hadas Bat-el founder of FHO! I'm also a poet, blogger, writer, copywriter, and proud redhead! You can read my blog here: frumhangout.com/index.php/blog/item/hadas-bat-el-2 , I post every Sunday!

I can't wait to get to know you all! So what are you waiting for?! START POSTING!

You can also reach me at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. if you have any questions, comments, or you want to help with the site!
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Confused, Not Depressed 2 years 9 months ago #784

I totally hear the question. Here’s my approach.
A) “if He could’ve, He would’ve”. Ie. if Hashem is perfect and made a world purely as an unconditional gift to us, then it MUST be that this world, with the idea of needing to earn schar, is the best possible way to give us that pleasure.
B) Why do we think He could have done better? Because we’re making the fundamental mistake of thinking that pain and effort are intrinsically bad. It’s just not true. Think of some of the greatest and deepest pleasures you’ve had in life. They took effort, overcoming frustration, discomfort, maybe even pain, right?
That’s when you realize this:
That pleasure of accomplishment you got wasn’t DESPITE the effort. It was because of it!

Effort and the need to accomplish aren’t a glitch in Hashem’s plan. They’re a bonus.
Rabbi Moshe Zeldman lectures on a wide variety of Jewish topics to audiences around the world. He teaches Jewish philosophy at the Aish HaTorah Yeshiva in Jerusalem to both beginners and advanced students, as well as many other educational institutions in Israel. He also lectures internationally for the world-famous Discovery Seminar. Born and raised in Canada, Rabbi Zeldman did his undergraduate work in Artificial Intelligence and Philosophy at the University of Toronto. During his studies he developed an interest in political issues affecting the Jewish community, and became involved in student activism, becoming national chairman of the Jewish Students Network, and served on the board of the World Union of Jewish Students. His interests in Jewish leadership and advocacy led him eventually to pursue studies in traditional Judaism. He made aliyah in 1991 and received rabbinical ordination from Yeshivat Aish HaTorah in Jerusalem. He teaches a variety of Jewish topics for Aish HaTorah, AEPi, Birthright, the Maimonides program at Princeton, Tel Aviv and Hebrew University, NCSY, Hillel, and the esteemed University of Cambridge Cholent Society. He has helped establish outreach centers in South and Central America, has lectured to Jewish communities in over 15 countries around the world, and founded the Core18 Leaders Lab for Jewish social entrepreneurs. Rabbi Zeldman lives in Jerusalem with his family.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Confused, Not Depressed 2 years 9 months ago #785

  • Rabbi Meir Kahane
  • Rabbi Meir Kahane's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Administrator
  • Menahel of Chedvas Bais Yaakov. (See signature for more details)
  • Posts: 7
  • Thank you received: 6
  • Karma: 0
Rabbi Zeldman, one could argue that if you had a choice whether to accomplish "A" with pain or without you'd choose without, no?
Rabbi Kahane is menahel of Chedvas Bais Yaakov in Yerushalayim. Originally from Memphis, Tennessee, Rabbi Kahane is a dynamic and sought after speaker. With a mix of deep machshava and meaningful messages, Rabbi Kahane appeals to a wide range of audiences. He teaches in every level of Jewish education from frontline kiruv at Aish HaTorah's Discovery Seminar and JEWEL program, to Bais Yaakov. Besides Chedvas, Rabbi Kahane teaches in a number of schools including Bnot Torah Institute (Sharfman's), Pninim Seminary, Lahav Bais Yaakov, Seminar Yerushalayim, Bais Yaakov Kesser Chaya, Neve Yerushalayim and lectures in almost every major Jewish institution in Yerushalayim including Hebrew University. He teaches Gemara in Aish HaTorah's Bais Medrish program and formerly taught machshava in Yeshivas Ohr Yerushalayim and Yeshivas Ohr Dovid. Rabbi Kahane is also leads the "Nesivos" Bais Yaakov trip to Poland. Rabbi Kahane earned his smicha from HaRav HaGaon Rav Moshe Meiselman shlit'a in Yerushalayim and studied both under him and HaRav HaGaon Rav Simcha Maimon shlit"a. Rabbi Kahane has become known worldwide as a highly innovative educator and serves as educational consultant for a number of Jewish institutions in Israel. Rabbi Kahane lives in the Maalot Dafna neighborhood of Yerushalayim with his wife and family.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Confused, Not Depressed 2 years 9 months ago #786

Yetzer hara/desire for comfort says: for sure with no pain

The adult in me that sees that that pain/effort makes life deeply better says: no way.
Rabbi Moshe Zeldman lectures on a wide variety of Jewish topics to audiences around the world. He teaches Jewish philosophy at the Aish HaTorah Yeshiva in Jerusalem to both beginners and advanced students, as well as many other educational institutions in Israel. He also lectures internationally for the world-famous Discovery Seminar. Born and raised in Canada, Rabbi Zeldman did his undergraduate work in Artificial Intelligence and Philosophy at the University of Toronto. During his studies he developed an interest in political issues affecting the Jewish community, and became involved in student activism, becoming national chairman of the Jewish Students Network, and served on the board of the World Union of Jewish Students. His interests in Jewish leadership and advocacy led him eventually to pursue studies in traditional Judaism. He made aliyah in 1991 and received rabbinical ordination from Yeshivat Aish HaTorah in Jerusalem. He teaches a variety of Jewish topics for Aish HaTorah, AEPi, Birthright, the Maimonides program at Princeton, Tel Aviv and Hebrew University, NCSY, Hillel, and the esteemed University of Cambridge Cholent Society. He has helped establish outreach centers in South and Central America, has lectured to Jewish communities in over 15 countries around the world, and founded the Core18 Leaders Lab for Jewish social entrepreneurs. Rabbi Zeldman lives in Jerusalem with his family.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Confused, Not Depressed 2 years 9 months ago #787

  • Frummie
  • Frummie's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Newbie
  • Posts: 5
  • Thank you received: 1
  • Karma: 0
first off, thank you so much for responding to my question!
but i still have somewhat of a problem with that answer. i know that pain/effort can be pleasure, but:
1) there's no greater pleasure than being in Hashem's presence
2) again, hashem made the world in such a way that pain and effort = some level of pleasure. he technically didn't have to!
i understand your answer that we just need to accept that everything hashem does is good, but i find it really hard to be passionate about working hard if i don't know why i'm here in the first place. i don't want to be like a little kid who hashem just makes a contest for and gives a prize to; i want to have a real relationship with him!
not sure if i'm being clear here...
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Confused, Not Depressed 2 years 9 months ago #788

  • Rena
  • Rena's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Posts: 45
  • Thank you received: 6
  • Karma: 0
You sound thought out and clear to me Frummie.
Just have patience...I'm sure you'll get your answers..
It got dark, you think you've been buried but in reality you've just been planted.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Confused, Not Depressed 2 years 9 months ago #790

  • Hadas Bat-el
  • Hadas Bat-el's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Administrator
  • Founder of FHO
  • Posts: 147
  • Thank you received: 20
  • Karma: 2
Yes, I am waiting on an answer....
Welcome to the FHO forum!
I'm Hadas Bat-el founder of FHO! I'm also a poet, blogger, writer, copywriter, and proud redhead! You can read my blog here: frumhangout.com/index.php/blog/item/hadas-bat-el-2 , I post every Sunday!

I can't wait to get to know you all! So what are you waiting for?! START POSTING!

You can also reach me at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. if you have any questions, comments, or you want to help with the site!
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Confused, Not Depressed 2 years 9 months ago #793

  • Malach136
  • Malach136's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 44
  • Thank you received: 11
  • Karma: 4
hey Frummie, you sound like a very thought out person, thinking is great and searching for answers is awesome.
"i don't want to be like a little kid who hashem just makes a contest for and gives a prize to; i want to have a real relationship with him!"-
i feel like it's not that we do something and get reward like a little kid, this is how we earn a connection with him, by doing things for him we get closer to him, just like a mother's love for a child is so deep just because she gives her child so much of herself, by us giving Hashem from ourselves, our own life especially with pain it strengthens our connection with him, we are his child, he loves us and gives us so much in order for us to love and connect to him we give too, we give him the pain in our hearts and dedicate our sufferings to him.
"but i find it really hard to be passionate about working hard if i don't know why i'm here in the first place."- this feels like a whole other discussion and a very deep question to discuss i hope Hadas Bat-el will get us answers from the rabbanim here on this too so we can have what to discuss.

Yes, I am waiting for answers from the rabbi's. But we can discuss meanwhile too you know! Will post when the come.....- Hadas Bat-el
Last Edit: 2 years 9 months ago by Hadas Bat-el.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Confused, Not Depressed 2 years 8 months ago #810

  • Hadas Bat-el
  • Hadas Bat-el's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Administrator
  • Founder of FHO
  • Posts: 147
  • Thank you received: 20
  • Karma: 2
Hey Frummie,
I just sent an e-mail to nudge the Rabbi's. I guess it's been a busy season, Purim, etc.....
Also Rabbi Kahane's seminary had an open house recently, and I'm sure he's dealing with the applications of girls for next year, but I hope to get a response soon!
Welcome to the FHO forum!
I'm Hadas Bat-el founder of FHO! I'm also a poet, blogger, writer, copywriter, and proud redhead! You can read my blog here: frumhangout.com/index.php/blog/item/hadas-bat-el-2 , I post every Sunday!

I can't wait to get to know you all! So what are you waiting for?! START POSTING!

You can also reach me at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. if you have any questions, comments, or you want to help with the site!
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Frummie

Confused, Not Depressed 2 years 8 months ago #818

I don't quite see how this is like a contest and getting a prize.
Hashem wants us to have ultimate pleasure, which is closeness to Him.
He could have made a world where all there are are the malachim that get it automatically, because Hashem just made them naturally spiritual.
Hashem decided instead to add a deeper level of pleasure for us humans-- it's called earning. The way that Derech Hashem explains the idea, the reason it's better to earn the relationship is because then it's really yours. You've chosen perfection. It wasn't just handed to you like the angels. In that sense we're "closer" to Hashem because we're more like Him--Hashem's perfection is His. It wasn't given to Him.

So why are you here? To build a relationship with Hashem. And to know that for every time it's hard, THAT'S when you get to show that you really want it. That's when you're really earning it. And that good feeling that you get is a feeling of closeness to Hashem. It's a feeling that no animal or angel or anything else in the bria can possibly feel.
Rabbi Moshe Zeldman lectures on a wide variety of Jewish topics to audiences around the world. He teaches Jewish philosophy at the Aish HaTorah Yeshiva in Jerusalem to both beginners and advanced students, as well as many other educational institutions in Israel. He also lectures internationally for the world-famous Discovery Seminar. Born and raised in Canada, Rabbi Zeldman did his undergraduate work in Artificial Intelligence and Philosophy at the University of Toronto. During his studies he developed an interest in political issues affecting the Jewish community, and became involved in student activism, becoming national chairman of the Jewish Students Network, and served on the board of the World Union of Jewish Students. His interests in Jewish leadership and advocacy led him eventually to pursue studies in traditional Judaism. He made aliyah in 1991 and received rabbinical ordination from Yeshivat Aish HaTorah in Jerusalem. He teaches a variety of Jewish topics for Aish HaTorah, AEPi, Birthright, the Maimonides program at Princeton, Tel Aviv and Hebrew University, NCSY, Hillel, and the esteemed University of Cambridge Cholent Society. He has helped establish outreach centers in South and Central America, has lectured to Jewish communities in over 15 countries around the world, and founded the Core18 Leaders Lab for Jewish social entrepreneurs. Rabbi Zeldman lives in Jerusalem with his family.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Confused, Not Depressed 2 years 8 months ago #820

  • Frummie
  • Frummie's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Newbie
  • Posts: 5
  • Thank you received: 1
  • Karma: 0
thank you!
i think i really understand it now!
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Time to create page: 0.248 seconds