TOPIC: How can we have faith?

Can we have faith in others faith for us if we don't have faith in ourselves?

I love the phraseology!!

Can we have faith in others faith for us if we don't have faith in ourselves?

I think yes. I do.

Sometimes, I' much more able to see the good in others than in myself. I mean, that's pretty common, right? Especially in this generation of low-self-esteem and all.

About the specific word 'faith'. An interesting point... all relationships in this world mirror, and have something to teach us in relation to our relationship with G-d.

So faith in ourselves, faith in others... will have a big impact n one's relationship with G-d!

Just an interesting point to ponder... what do you think?

I was told and I cant prove it otherwise yet... that we cant have faith in g-d if we don't have faith on ourselves... and so far I find it very true...

Hmmm

What about the people who have faith in G-d but not in themselves? I know someone who would say this 'I know I am unworthy. or unable, it's impossible for me to do this... but I'm appealing to YOU, G-d, Master of the World, and I have faith you'll pull me through.'

That's the opposite of what you're saying, right?

You are talking about 2 very different things....

JAP is right, that if you don't trust yourself, believe in yourself - as a person, as a worthy person - you can't believe in G-d.

And yes Malki, you can have faith in G-d's 'ability' so to speak, and not your own. G-d can do everything. So yes, you can have faith that G-d will get you past/through something that you can't do. That is a pretty true definition of trust actually. So there is no contradiction - it isn't the opposite, for you're talking about 2 very different things.... I mean, that's the way I see it, you can beg to differ all you like

Ellie I like what you did there... good mashup

Okay im starting to get all confused here myself...

So what is the difference between believing in g-d and believing in his abilities...

Another thing, I totally agree in g-d's ability all the way... and still I don't keep all the mitzas I sin. I don't make him proud. I don't deserve to get from him what I get... Why is it that even though I know im doing something wrong I still do it?

I remember replying to this.... was it just in my imagination?

Probably....

No, I did reply...

Believing in G-d is trusting/knowing that He could do anything, in His abilities is knowing that though you can't get through something, He can get you through it.. so say I want to eat the extra piece of cake, and don't have the ability somehow to with-hold, then even though I don't have the ability, Hashem always has the ability.

Why you do wrong even if you know it's wrong??? Is that really a question?? Welcome to the land of humans!!
A better question would be why does anyone ever do anything wrong?
Many reasons why you do wrong even if you know it's wrong. Could be anything. Fooling yourself in the moment. Anger at G-d. Frustration with yourself. Leaving.

This isn't what I wrote then, but some of it is

Whew! You have such a clear way of explaining it all! Many thanks!

You guys are really right!
I have a quote up on my wall. "You cant love G-D if you dont love others, cant love other if you dont love yourself"

So yess it does start with yourself. Inorder to see the Tzelem Elokim in other, you must be able to see it whithin YOURSELF!

There are 2 different aspects to belief in G-D.
1- Knowing his existence. proving logically that he exists.
2 Trusting in His "powers".

Imagine if you were sky diving with your friend. You KNOW the ropes will hold you. Youve reserched it they are the best kind. but the real question is..... but are you going to JUMP?

Rebo- I heard a similar mashal.

When your on a plane and it hits some turbulence, you still remain somewhat calm because you TRUST THE PILOT.

I guess on another level you also know that there is NOTHING you can do. It's ALL in the hands of the pilot, and boy does he know his plane.

(Now just replace the 'pilot' for Hashem!!)

you're talking about belief and knowledge - belief is the belief that he's there, knowledge - true knowledge (I'm using this word here because it's the one, I think, that R' Tatz uses here) is that you'll trust and act on this belief. It isn't faith, or belief, but knowledge.

Although, there are also 2 aspects to knowledge - knowledge that there is a Creator/God, and knowledge that this creator is actually involved in the world in it's minute by minute existence, sustaining it, and if so, caring.

exactly ellie!
Chavavot Halevavot explains it as Emuna & bitachon.
Enuna-Logical proof
Bitachon- Acting/relying on the proof

Cant really have one with out the other.

What's a practical way to work on these?

If you feel lacking in both, what do you suggest to start with?

(Questions open to the general public!)

This is a great series by R' Yitzchok Berkowitz on Aish audio - philosophy 101, working through the proof and belief in god logically from the beginning. I haven't been through them all yet - when I have the time , but it's really good. Well worth it to listen to, regardless if you have questions or not (meaning, even if you don't, for it's not actually made for those who do).

Another way is to become aware of the presence of a force outside of yourself. R' Avigdor Miller writes a lot about it, but his writing is heavy, for it's old English. His books are great! Another philosophy book, interesting, is The light at the end of the tunnel - I think it's called - by R' Abraham Twerski, it's kind of a novel.

The most practical way I can think of is to become aware. Notice and appreciate the little things. Such as the road being clear when you want to cross. The person picking up the phone when you ring. It's the small things that add up, and build to form a larger picture. The large miracles may make a difference, but not really, for what to they have to do with the here and now?

I'm so interested in that link you posted I jut can't access it, can you try post it again?

Aish audio - philosophy 101

oooh you gotta pay for it, right?

Yes, but the first is free, and I've paid so you ask whoever your rabbi is if I can forward to you what I have without you paying for it. If yes I'll send them to you. It's long - but really worth it. I mean that you'd have to listen through the series - I've only listened to the beginning few.